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Re: ne0

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Fletch
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Post by Fletch »

Frederik wrote:In the 3 pens thread, ne0 wrote...
In his defense, it's a common beginner mistake to set the render settings manually, then go to the render dialog and notice the presets... then think "oh, so it's going to apply this method to the settings I'm already using... I see..." When really, you don't see, but you think you do... then you wonder what the heck is going on...

now, if he had simply read the getting started or followed any tutorial he would have found out this is not the case... but he is not like most people on forums. Forums are for people that don't want a teacher, but prefer to teach themselves and have a forum for getting a push in the right direction. He is a 'need-a-teacher' type that wants a teacher to tell him everything step-by-step one-on-one... doesn't work well with forums.
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Post by GreyHead »

[[>> Opinion alert <<]]

I've been watching with interest and I'm with Fletch here. The effect on Ne0, good or bad is nothing compared with the effect on other readers and the impression they take away about Kerkythea. On most forums for every poster there are ten or more lurkers and if they don't see polite, helpful replies they will never post - and worse, they may go away and spread the word about how *** the people at KT are.

My personal experience of joing this forum was pretty unwelcoming and uncomfortable and I wouldn't with that on anyone else.

If KT is to be a commercial success then the support needs to be as 'professional' as possible, that means that postings get written for the silent majority, not for the pushy poster. I'm not saying that's easy but it is a place to head for.

Bob
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Post by sintra »

Hi Bob,

Its good to hear your views on this :wink:

I guess what is a little worrying is your quote below, could you try and let us know how you ended feeling this way :? :grin:
My personal experience of joing this forum was pretty unwelcoming and uncomfortable and I wouldn't with that on anyone else
Kind regards

Darren

Sketchup6 & Kerkythea
Dell Precison M90 notebook, Intel Core 2 Duo 2.33 Ghz, 4Gb of Ram, nVidia Quadro FX 2500M

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Fletch
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Post by Fletch »

Well, Bob,
I would say that's odd and sad that you received a less-than pleasant entry into this forum... wish I knew what to say about that.


I noticed now that "ilay7k" is posting (11 times in past 2 days or so).
He is a guy that uses Vray, & Indigo, and very active and helpful to everyone. I think his interest in KT is from a mere comparison standpoint (reminding me of Kwistenbiebel, here) of checking out all the render engines and seeing how they compare to SKindigo and Indigo... I'm afraid he won't hang around long, because I have a feeling SkIndigo/Indigo is so easy and fun to use, he won't bother with the advanced features KT has to offer. I don't know enough about Indigo, but it looks very powerful/well developed.

The thing I understand, and could be wrong, is that it does not offer multiple render methods for the same scene... the think I love about KT> multiple methods work with the same mats and lights - THIS MUST REMAIN IF KT IS TO STAND APART FROM THE OTHERS.

anyways, I guess I'm saying... let's be welcoming to "ilay7k" and others... you never know who you're talking to.
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Post by notareal »

So it begins... I wonder, if one should pm a friendly warning about ne0. Or let them discover him by hard way? I feel sorry for Indigo forums.
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Post by Frederik »

GreyHead wrote:My personal experience of joing this forum was pretty unwelcoming and uncomfortable and I wouldn't with that on anyone else.
I'm sorry to hear this, Bob...
Would you mind elaborating a bit, enabling us to learn by our mistakes..??
GreyHead wrote:If KT is to be a commercial success then the support needs to be as 'professional' as possible, that means that postings get written for the silent majority, not for the pushy poster. I'm not saying that's easy but it is a place to head for.
I fully agree with you on this..!! :thumbsup:

Decision haven't been taken - yet - but either the commercial version will have a new name and thereby a new web-site etc. or we will stick with the KT name/brand for the commercial version...

If we stick to the KT name, we will need to create a separate forum, which will only be accessible for users of the commercial render application... :!:
This is of utmost importance since we believe that pro users will feel "uncomfortable" in the current forum...

Giannis will come back with this shortly... ;)
Cheers
Kim Frederik

“…When a decision is made it’s important that you implement it quickly.”
GreyHead
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Post by GreyHead »

@notareal: and a very good answer from Kwistenbiebel.

@Kim: on the question of a 'possible' commercial version. I'd strongly suggest that you make use of the exisiting Kerkythea brand awareness and keep that name overall. Even in thee instant internet days it takes time to build awareness and if you throw it away it all has to be rebuilt with the new name (not to mention the problemsin finding a 'clean' brand name). That said I think that a sub-brand for a 'professional' edition is fine "Kerktythea - Omega" or whatever.

@Fletch, Kim & sintra: I've thought about whether or not posting more of my experiences joining here is useful, I think it probably is. BUT I want to start by saying that this is about my experiences in relation to a couple of events, not about criticising anyone else.

A bit of history becasue I think I'm typical of one group of users. I bought SketchUp a few years ago - not long before the Google purchase. At the time I wanted to model our house here (must finish that one day). I wasn't terribly interested in rendering. After an initial burst I didn't touch SketchUp for a year or more. Last year I picked it up again for a couple of projects and began to get a little more skilled at using it. One use was for some simple illustrations and I found that it helped to render them - so I watched the forums about renderers and started to read about KT. I downloaded it and tried it out.

Now my interest was not to do lifelike renders but to create some little illustrations for another forum. I know a little about SketchUp, nothing at all about rendering. So I blunder my way in and experiment. I soon find that KT is not a 'push-button and go' programme. There are lots of settings and most of them use jargon that is completely incomprehensible to me - some of it still is! (note - I'm a reasonalby intelligent person with a fair science background).

I'm lurking on the forums and notice two things - many of the images are IMHO, of unbelievably good quality; and that most simple requests for information are met with a polite but slightly dismissive version of RTFM. (The bit about we're all volunteers comes up quite often too - though I haven't seen that quite so much recently.)

I really struggle with understanding materials. I downloaded the beginners guide and read that, I downloaded any other tutuorial I could find and kep on experimenting. I read Patrick's material Guide and found much of it just went over my head. And I clearly wasn't the only person in this place.

So I took some time out and reverse engineered the basic material pack on the (mistaken) grounds that they must be a good place to start. I tried to combine this digging with my learning from the Materials Guide - though the two didn't seem to agree as often as I would like.

As an offering back to the community, and with some temerity, I put what I had found in a 'Beginner's Guide' and posted it in the forums asking for comments (at least I think I did). Within a short while my post had been edited and had screaming yellow and orange headlines across it saying something like 'IGNORE THIS IT'S RUBBISH'.

I was deeply offended, not becasue it was rubbish (though it might be) but because this seemed to me to be an aggressive over the top response to a good chunk of work on my part. AFAIR there was no explanation as to why it was rubbish or any other constructive or informative respose. I think I was invited to ask questions in the forum - though when I asked what needed to be fixed there was no reply.

It was not Patrick who made this post - I did get into a short exchange of IMs (or posts, I forget) with him and he was suitably apologetic on behalf of KT.

Today I've been reading posts here and playing with Kerkythea for a lot longer, I understand a lot more about materials. But I still find that much of what Patrick writes is too advanced for me to understand. It's not that I'm not capable of understanding it, more that there are some building blocks missing. As I said to him at the time - part of the problem is that he knows too much and I know too little and the communication falls into the gap in between.

As you can see I stuck with it, in earlier years I might well have said 'stuff you' and gone off to try some other renderer - it was a close call.

Apologies for the long post

Bob
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Post by Fletch »

thanks for the 'splain' Bob. certain individuals here are less-experienced in moderating forums/dealing with folks than others, and we are enjoying seeing them grow and mature as we see they have GREAT POTENTIAL AND TALENT... but they will step on some toes along the way... it's how we all grow- we learn from our mistakes. :roll: c'est la vie

I just wanted to mention the guy "ilay7k" just said here that he is interested in writing an exporter for C4D :shock:

and this guy, I understand, lives in Shymkent, Kazakhstan ?!!?! If true, and I think it is, he is indeed a UNIQUE individual. :D
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Post by notareal »

GreyHead wrote:@notareal: and a very good answer from Kwistenbiebel.
Looks like Kwistenbiebel tuned a lot his reply... Earlier, like expected, he was not happy about mixing "KT" and indigo, nor about what ne0 starts questions about things that can be hind fast from forums, now the reply is really polite and 1/3 of original :o

Generally I think we hopefully might have learned something during this episode. With commercial version there might be paying customers like ne0 and they do need a lot different treatment comparing to what happened with ne0. Over reactions should not happen even with most difficult customers as there are plenty of quiet lurkers around, that will never post, but they still can influence how great success "KT pro" will be.
Last edited by notareal on Fri May 30, 2008 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avariant »

GreyHead's post makes a big impact on me. I think it illustrates a core issue on the forum. The gap between those who really understand such and such an issue (material, render, etc) and those who kind-of-but-not-really get it. The result, as I see it, is those who know are willing to explain, but get tired of explaining over and over. This makes for, eventually, short tempers and ill-phrased responses.

I have an idea, I don't know if it's a good idea. :) Anyway, would you guys be interested in compiling a list of questions -> answers as they come up? Then, when the question comes up again, we just paste in the answer. I know this is exactly what a FAQ is. But it seems that people don't do a great job following links a lot of times. :roll: If we paste in the answer, it gets the personal touch of an actual response, and you don't have to take the time to think up and type up an answer.
Like I said, I know it's an FAQ, basically, but it might come across better. And, our answers will be consistent and correct (I always worry my answers aren't correct).

Now, about the ne0 thing, I know that the above suggestion wouldn't have made a difference. I agree whole heartedly about maintaining a good image for KT, but realize that the ne0 situation was not typical. If you ever check out the wings forum and you search for posts by gujeeves (that's ne0), you'll see he was actually asked to leave, and not kindly. It's not just a failing on our part at KT forum; he has the ability to drive people nuts.
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Post by GreyHead »

@Avariant: I think that FAQs are a 'good idea' but they need to be short bite-sized chunks that address just one point (or at least deal with one point up front though they may go on later in more detail).

Usually when people ask questions on a forum it's because they are stuck. Often the question is poorly phrased - and that may be through ignorance, poor understanding, haste or language, you don't know why when you read it. (To give you an example I read a post today on another forum that was almost incomprehensible - it was only by chance that I realised that the poster was an experienced Joomla developer who reads English well but is not comfortable writing it.)

It is not 'good enough' to say 'please read the manual' as very often they won't recogise the answer if it is staring them in the face (that often happens to me here). The manual is vital and some people wil read and study it. But FAQs and short focused tutorials are the answer to repeating forum questions.

Bob
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Post by Fletch »

FAQs and short focused tutorials
this has been where I've focused my efforts. short, focused tutorials for specific common problems.

then I can kindly say 'here's a tut I made just for you!'
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Post by Avariant »

I agree, and that's kind of what I was getting at: deliver just the answer the person needs in a simple way. My idea was along the lines of maintaining a list of questions and answers that the team could pull from, so you don't have to expend so much personal energy responding to the same questions repeatedly.
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Post by Frederik »

Hi Bob - et al... ;)

Thanks for taking your time to answer, Bob... Much appreciated..!! ;)
GreyHead wrote:@Kim: on the question of a 'possible' commercial version. I'd strongly suggest that you make use of the exisiting Kerkythea brand awareness and keep that name overall. Even in thee instant internet days it takes time to build awareness and if you throw it away it all has to be rebuilt with the new name (not to mention the problemsin finding a 'clean' brand name). That said I think that a sub-brand for a 'professional' edition is fine "Kerktythea - Omega" or whatever.
There's - at the moment - a lot of correspondence regarding this issue exactly...
Although it seem to be an easy decision, it's definitely not... :|
But I'm sure that Giannis will announce his decision in a couple of days, cause we need to "get the ball rolling" and gain momentum again... ;)

GreyHead wrote:@Fletch, Kim & sintra: I've thought about whether or not posting more of my experiences joining here is useful, I think it probably is. BUT I want to start by saying that this is about my experiences in relation to a couple of events, not about criticising anyone else.
But it's MUCH appreciated that you tell us about this from your point of view...!! Thanks for doing that..!! ;)

It's somehow funny, cause a lot of the background story is (almost freighting) similar to my own... :o
(Perhaps you're my unknown twin-brother..?? :lol: )
GreyHead wrote:As an offering back to the community, and with some temerity, I put what I had found in a 'Beginner's Guide' and posted it in the forums asking for comments (at least I think I did). Within a short while my post had been edited and had screaming yellow and orange headlines across it saying something like 'IGNORE THIS IT'S RUBBISH'.
For a moment I thought you meant the Beginners Starting Guide, but now I realize it wasn't...
(I actually went through all 15 pages of that thread, and it was quite fun... You and Edson quickly became my favorite students... :D )
GreyHead wrote:I was deeply offended, not becasue it was rubbish (though it might be) but because this seemed to me to be an aggressive over the top response to a good chunk of work on my part.
Now - I can't find the post you refer to, but it's a very good point, which we definitely should learn from..!!

Although we're here on a volunteer basis and although this application is made available free of charge, we should always do our best to act professional and polite towards users... :!:

I do feel that we do this most of the time, but we sure can get better...!! ;)
GreyHead wrote:As you can see I stuck with it, in earlier years I might well have said 'stuff you' and gone off to try some other renderer - it was a close call.
Although it will be impossible to measure, I do believe that Bob's experience is NOT unique..!! Unfortunately... :(
We need to think about this, and learn from it...!!

Even I struggle with material creation..!! :oops:
Perhaps we could make a Material editor with two tabs...
One very basic and easy...
Second being the current advanced material editor...

Just thoughts... ;)
Cheers
Kim Frederik

“…When a decision is made it’s important that you implement it quickly.”
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Post by alex »

For material creation, we should have an automatic way of creating physically accurate materialsn ( just by entering a certain reflection amount, Kerkythea would automatically create fresnel ramps with correct IOR), same for diffuse, etc.... While still having an "advanced" material editor (the one we currently have).
Alexandre Bagros-Murat

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